This is the proof in coding that those two
sorts are mathematically,
VERY different one from the other and only a wooden head will say
Starting from the outermost bight on one side and following the strand
then you get:
- U3 - O3 - U3 - O3 - U3 - O1
for the Herringbone O3 - U3 -
O3 - U3 - O3 - U3
for the Herringbone-Pineapple
As can be so easily seen, " as the nose in the middle of the face" to
take an old Gallicism :
there are more crossings in a Herringbone than there are in a
of same dimensions (number of THK components and number of PASS).
GUESS WHY ?
simple enough Mr De La Palice ( " a quarter of
an hour before dying he was still living"
is a famous 'lapalissade"') would have said :
the nested-bights create less crossings than the NOT-nested bights do
(nested-bights == bight keeping a parallel course with each other so
not able to cross
each other, that contrary to what the NOT-nested bights of
the Herringbone K.do) .
How on earth can one NOT see that and still be considered an ex-spurt
by a countless
I DO wonder.
2010 June 4th
herringbone-PINEAPPLE for those
crowd ! at least if I am to believe what I
on some forums and on sites all over)
it impossible to make
unguided, not 'held by the hand' , elementary visual
and so differentiate
those two types of
knots from each
In both cases I am showing here it is a 3-PASS knot, same order of
colours in the
(PASS-1= blue, PASS-2=white, PASS-3=red) the component THK are
all 7L 4B
( the Herringbone-Pineapple has one set of 3 its other
structural set of components being
I do wonder why this egregious mistake of taking one knot for the other
The only explanation I could find after much pondering was :
dull interest, or having been (still being) misguided by quite
pseudo ex-spurt(s) .
is more than enough to see that one (the
Nests of Bights and the other (the Herringbone K.) has none of
those nests since
has only a single Bight Rim instead of staged multiple
knots have (as have a lot of other knots that are neither HERRINGBONE K
Herringbone-PINEAPPLE K ) a herringbone PATTERN, but the pattern IS
BE CONFOUNDED WITH the knot cordage route ! The pattern is the
2010 June 6th (a rather long rambling but it may
teach you something)
angry (and a
despairing) topic was prompted by a mail
received from a person
swamped with 'disquiet' after reading
some web page by a so-called ex-spurt or so
acclaimed on some forums.
Fortunately my correspondent appears to be one of
'readily engage their
brain at all time' and that person does want to
learn not only to "make" but
"understand the why" and "get the deep structure" of
certainly does not belong to the 'spider' club if only because he
by himself the "this cannot be and is not
in accord with visual observation and simple basic
pondering" in what he was dangerously exposed to.
He detected it but was so perturbed
by what he had read that he felt
the need to ask
someone else for confirmation :
power of words of ignorance out
on the Web !
... The simple
definition of a pineapple
knot is a herringbone
interweave with nested
this above in green colour denoting a quote is the
starting point of the cause
SIMPLE or rather being a lot nearer to be
No ad hominen intended by a real big '?' floating in my mind.
*** first and
this is *not* for personal
attack and fight *but for* warning and
protection of those led
astray by those egregiously mistaken words.
second, in my experience it is no use to hurt people feelings
even when they write
utter really stupid words ; ad hominem argumentation is
one of the large collection of
stance ( despite possible 'contrary'
appearances ) has always been
attack the deed not the doer.
The doer will die eventually but not the
*** third there is not only one, alas, person in
this vast Realm
of Ignorance who appears to
be Trying to Shine with Silly utterances so true it is, alas,
royaume des aveugles les
rois" / "in the
realm of the blind the one-eyed are kings".
by the way : despite some really sore points those Hypothetical's pages
can otherwise be
considered far from being the very worst on
the Net -
mind you they could be a whole lot
better minus the theoretical
giberrish, their authour should stay basically practical and not
adventure where he cannot hope to survive : theory- at this
condition his pages could be, somewhat, in some cases, be of potential
useful to 'learners' provided
those keep their brain
110% ready to discern and then discard
theoretical piffle and balderdash they will find in
[open quote) ... The simple definition of a pineapple knot is a herringbone interweave with nested
To achieve this in a pleasing manner we will interweave two odd part
knots with an equal
number of bights and differing in parts by two to
make the bights nest.
Well, quite sadly that person who has the pretension to be
able to give a
PINEAPPLE KNOTS in his web pages appears to
--- there are
PINEAPPLE K. that DO NOT HAVE a Herringbone pattern .
--- there are PINEAPPLE K. with THK components of EVEN number of LEAD
--- the PINEAPPLE nature does not rest on the CODING of the pattern (
other ) but on the mathematics of the cordage route.
( proof with images given lower in this topic )
I could add for his information that
--- there are nested-bight
with herringbone pattern THAT ARE NOT PINEAPPLE
--- that In My Opinion And Knowledge he is missing the mark with a
number of his affirmations.(
from imprecise to false : all shades are available !)
Still I am
not here to
try and help
him make better pages ; he just need, if he can do it, to
and Schaake's work.
a much safer source than me.
This hypothetical site may happen - I really
refuse to go there because
no proof in
either direction - to be a good
practitioner, but surely
the author has at least some faulty
knowledge and should refrain from
this false knowledge and seed disquiet in
readers' minds. (if your are troubled by that plural
possessive - I received mail telling me
of 'mistake' where there is
mistake - just study your own language http://www.meredith.edu/grammar/plural.htm
Most probably there are persons giving him (I wonder why on earth,
if only because *no*
one can hold such a position permanently but rarely and atthe very best
only for a transitory
moment) the position of an ex-spurt.
Seems to me, seen from my chair, that
some will not have engaged their sharpest
brain or will not have enough personal verified and validated
knowledge to filter what is
said to them by this alleged ex-spurt.
In principle it is laudable to 'make things simple' but I personally
find it quite
are made SIMPLISTIC AND
by doing so.
You do need to be awfully 'good' on a topic to make
make things simpler than
make things simple at
the cost of their validity.
If I am to believe the
appearances he has given in his writings, the web site's
to learnquite a
lot of things that are missing in his knowledge store
Herringbone-Pineapple K. and Herringbone K.
mention a very few of the
Mind you he may readily be forgiven for being mistaken if only because
one ; being mistaken is a right ( under the provision that it is not
permanent state ! but a
very transitory phase) . What cannot be
forgiven, in my world, is the wanton contamination of others
with one's own mistaken ideas
and, in a lesser measure, the
complaisance vis à vis one's
own ignorance leading to not searching
so enlarge sufficiently one's VERIFIED
and VALIDATED knowledge
before risking leading others
WHAT TAKES THE PRIZE IS another funny point, courtesy
of same source, this
time about Herringbone Knots.
By now it is obvious
that we are "nesting" the bights of the interweave
behind the crosses
between the bights of the foundation. This is one
level past the nesting we used for the
simple pineapple and some would
contend that this is a pineapple also.This is
probably a matter of
semantics*** and I
will not dispute the matter. In fact when
properly tightened the bights of the interweave will be partly or
completely hidden by
this nesting depending on the material used to
braid the knot.
PLEASE ! PLEASE!! PLEASE!!!
Remind me of my youth-looong ago- in London OHPLEASE DO NOTKISSME ! OHPLEASE DO NOTKISS ! OHPLEASE DO NOT !
OHPLEASE DO !
OHPLEASE ! OH ! !
PLEASE ! PLEASE!! PLEASE!!!
HAVE PITY AND DESIST
SUCH ABERRATIONS IN SERIES !
is *not* about bookish knowledge BUT IT IS INDEED about SIMPLE VISUAL
by engaging one's brain to draw conclusions from
beyond my imagination to imagine an intelligent and knowledgeable
about in such a way.... ...Unless that guy
wants to use the same word (nest/nested...) for two
If that then THAT
is very bad communication.( see ***
at the bottom of this topic )
It does not demand that much clarity of
--- it is NOT a matter
of semantic (and not semantics as
spelled by that guy who does not
seems to have a good
handle on words in his own
language if I believe what I see written)
--- very different mathematical
not from --- personal quirks in
attribution of meaning to words (semantic which pertain to the words
-semantics which pertain to the science )
but from objective
constraints and criteria ( alas
not only one criterion
fault really anger me when it is put to use
to lead other persons astray.
If I were not having the uneasy and quite disquieting notion -- I don't
as feeling superior but... - -that this guy is
understand things several
steps above what he can easily manage *alone*
exploring well beyond the outer
reaches of his wits and ken I would
tell him to write command lines for the
Herringbone Half-period and for Herringbone-Pineapple
We would then see
if he can
do that while holding the absurd idea that Herringbone have
bight and that all the differences are """""just about
How stupid this notion is indeed cannot even be hinted
Believe me (at your own risk) if you cannot analyse the
mathematical formulas involved
and given somewhere in those
pages of mine ; taken from Schaake's works).
One more thing :
The author of those gems seems to me to belong to the
large crowd of persons who
for all intents and purposes appear to
believe that "showing" (describing if you want) is
little diggressionxxxxxxxjump it !xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I do use that trick myself = "showing" but I do try to take care to put
the "what is shown"
what will be necessary to the readers for
them to be able to built their own explanation using
brain and not just their visual sensors.
Faulty logical reasoning it is to equate 'describe' with
This is making the confusion between axioms and
To explain one needs to turn a 'particular' into a
THIS is not done by showing pretty drawings more targeted at
impressing the viewer than
at expressing a formalised reality !
can only show, that is offer to acquisition through our
senses, a 'particular' while a
'general' can only be acquired
through the application of superior ( superior in the meaning
word in neurology) intellectual processes and abstraction.
does not need to analyse in order to
'show' but just need
to observe ( I can draw
something that I am not able to understand for
lack of intelligence or lack of education or
explain one must analyse, understand and formalise to get a
Observing and describing == stopping at appearances
are 'a particular'.
description needs to be thoroughly analysed ( an enumeration is not an
analyse ) and
interpreted , it is not a finished, a readily usable
product, it is just 'building material'.
That is why a 'classification' even one as good as Linnaeus's does not explain any thing !
Do you think that describing (even perfectly) a volcanic eruption is
the same as explaining
can describe to the perfection the retrograde movement of planets and
yet be unable to
explain it ( Ptolémée did that, yet he
make useful predictions with that !)
One can make a perfect description and be utterly unable to explain or
what one just described .
of a little diggressionxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Explaining = = going well BEYOND appearances and attaining 'a general'.
To explain is not always to understand fully ! ( just thinks
about 'gravity' )
A sensor (an adequate one) can describe in the range of its
'sensing' ; only a fully
functioning human brain can explain.
you, observation (to look at is *not* to observe) description
and depiction are
building material for attaining an explanation.
having all the plans, the authorisations, the bricks, cement
whatever is no use to
get a house built if you
have masons !
Masons 'explain' the material 'into' a house. ( or a bridge or...)
Of course instead of "showing" I could do it the simplest and fastest
just a line of
Those formulas establish the magnitude of the difference between
* a knot with a herringbone pattern being a
Herringbone-Pineapple Knot with
* a knot with a herringbone pattern being a Herringbone Knot withOUT
tip to you readers =
till Mr Hypothetical HIMSELF - or one of his friends-
can write us a
application using same formulas and equations to do
Herringbone K. and
Herringbone-Pineapple K. Half-Period coding (using his absurd notion
knots have nested-bights) just conservatively
consider that what I say is right and
that he is desperately
error, illusion, delusion, whatever you do for and with yourself is an
personal freedom but NO one may attempt (and succeed at that
alas ! ) to propagate
mistaken ideas and pollute other brains. There is a notion that is
forgotten in the
360° defence of "free speech" : it is the abusing of free speech by
stupid notions to the unaware.
have made your utmost to be as certain as possible of what you transmit
may you offer
your words without warning readers/hearers that there is a lot of
you are giving them malarkey !
is a hazard any one can easily fall prey to (I know I have, often
been its victim, but never for long and I always refrained from
contaminating others with my
own imbecility) but
this stage of 'being mistaken'
should be the shortest transitional phase
and not a permanent state ; only
the most dumb
deliberately let it be permanent .
is NO NESTED-BIGHT in a Standard HERRINGBONE knots for the evident
reason that the bights are ALL ON THE SAME BIGHT
Even the 'blind lame dumb ass at the fair' could see the difference on
Herringbone == NO nested-bight
Herringbone-Pineapple == NESTED-BIGHT
How brain-blind can one need to be not to realise that in a
NESTED-BIGHTS == BIGHTS THAT ARE
PARALLEL TO EACH OTHER !
enough for even the sleepiest mind to get that simple notion straight
time around no ?
it appears in
(not that I
am saying that this guy is intrinsically really stupid, no, what I am
words are hugely
mistaken and apparently he is quite pleased and fully
satisfied to stay
mistaken! Never had the simple courtesy to answer my 'for your
information' mails in the
so I desisted from trying to open his eyes he wanted desesparately to
keep tightly shut.
As so often is the case the
ignorant wants to propagate the ignorance just
as drug addicts
want to propagate
their addiction : both behaviours are detrimental to other's health (
mental / physical ) )
So much ignorance, so complacently exposed to the blind admiration of
(some of which with a sincere
desire to learn and make progress and are
astray ! )
NEVER, NEVER, NEVER
blindly accept someone as an ex-spurt, NEVER, NEVER,
the sharp use of your own brain. (please!
I ask, for
safety, that you APPLY
THIS COUNSEL TO THIS SITE OF
MINE, even if you don't want to make that favour
others sites ; in last resort you will be
doing the favour to yourself not to me)
I would hate to see my words accepted without honest,
open,sharp intellectual examination
and cross verification
with independent validated sources. (the same parroting going
and around on some forum or in some books areNOT validated
sources so high is the plagiarism or copy-catting rate in
***** If I had to implement
TWO DIFFERENT programs (in HP48GX and in Excel
Worksheet) one for
HERRINGBONE K. ( NO nested-bight)
and one for Herringbone-PINEAPPLE K. ( WITH nested-bight)
is because their very natures are quite different as
far as the nested-bight
no-nested-bight (Poor Yorick !) is concerned and that difference
: the whole body of
study while IF one wants to refer to ' one word and the
meaning attributed to it - which is clearly the semantic
content of that guy's words- it is
'semantic' without 's'.
International Dictionary of English nest [SET]..... a set of
things that are similar but of different
have been designed
to fit inside each other.
Operative words : designed TO FIT INSIDE each other.
2010 June 7th
bon entendeur Salut !"
equivalent (or about equivalent) to:
"words to the wise !" :
manure is an outstanding way to enrich, fertilise and
better a poor soil
BUT intellectual manure is a sure way to rot and
Beware the brand of manure you fertilise your garden with but *do not
use any manure*
on your brain's cells ; if you carefully select and husband
the seeds YOU accept to have
sown there then you will prosper.
One's own brain if one respects it by using it every second of the day
thing heard, seen, felt, read, experienced or perceived is a wonderful
to each and all of us.
Alas some let it go derelict and/or keep it fallow.
DO NOT BE ONE OF THOSE !
PARANOID AND ALWAYS "EN GARDE" and do watch out for the contagious
ignorants (myself included in some domains ;-D |
ignorant I mean, not trying to
The ones you must avoid
most are of the "healthy carrier" type : the guy to
made a reputation of being an "ex-spurt, their favourable opinion
mostly founded on their own undiagnosed and untreated ignorance.
Copyright 2005 Sept - Charles
Hamel / Nautile -
Overall rewriting in August 2006 .
Copyright renewed. 2007-2012 -(each year of existence)