NOEUD DE FRANCISCAIN AND NOEUD DE CAPUCIN
Franciscan's and Capucin's knots
Two names for two knots hopelessly confused one for the other countless
times in books
and on the Web
This takes its origin in one of my posting on the Igkt
Forum which do
not hinder
people to still persist make a confusion between the two in
their
own posting on the
same forum. So much for the IGKT educational duty .
% \ ).
This the FRANCISCAN's knot and here is the different CAPUCIN's knot.
There is HERE a correct correspondence between Name and knot illustrated contrary to what you will be seeing 99.99% of the time.
The most compounded
error is the one that
describe the
so-called "Franciscan's knot"
(noeud de Franciscain in
French) as an alleged French monks knot and showing the
"Capucin's
knot" ; of course then showing under the "Capucin's" label the image of
what is in fact the "Franciscan's".
Simple error is inverting the knots with the labels. Medium size error is inverting the knots labels and stating they are monks (French being forgotten)
Up to now I only found 1 book and 2 web sites giving the correct information.
I do not know what the
contamination chain is but there
it is.
Just like with cancer, one cell is incorrectly « copied
»
and it becomes autonomous :
tumor growth is launched.
I work as I was trained
to in widely different
domains) :
when it is not direct, reproducible, observational or logically
derived knowledge then 2 independent
(independent from each
other ; because 10 power 36
sources linked between them are in fact only one source)
sources are the
minimum in searching about something, be it knot or other.
Proof or showing is better than
discussion or telling.
First two pictures are of
the " true " knots. If "true"
can apply!
More than 2 different paintings and sculptures (quite independent from
knots publishing whether book or web ; of course it could be suspected
that some were
'inspired' by an other, so not independent) show the knot
Franciscans
are supposed to sport.
Have seen real life Capucin
with simple overhand knot
instead ; some friars dispense
with them altogether.
Symbols are not any more what
once they were it seems.
Even went as far as to contact Franciscans to clarify the point ! ! (
Many have abandoned the " rope ")
Mistakes look at one by one :
First The Franciscans are not a monastic order, but a mendicant
apostolic
order founded in the late Middle Ages.
They are Friars not monks.
It was the decision of St Francis of Assise.
They are more precisely " lesser friars " as was the decision of the
Founder to exemplify humility, even in their title they were to be the
LESSER of all, that is the humblest.
Second
Not a French order since St Francis was an Italian and founded his
order in his country, in 1208 (only verbally accepted by Pope
in
1210).
By right of birth it is an Italian order !
St Francis of Assisi real name was Jean Bernardone (John Bernardone)
but his father was a great admirer of France so he
was dubbed
"
Francesco "
There are French branches of this Order of Lesser Friars, so some of
them are French by nationality but that does not make them
'monks' and
the community of the Franciscan is not a French community..
Third :
Capuchin do not use a knot different from the Franciscan Friars.
No need to give them their own 'flavour'.
There is only one knot formally worn.
Great care should be taken
in attributing a name to a
knot.
Example :
- "square knot " it is an " indifferent "
descriptive naming, but as soon as it goes
by
" reef knot " then it s assigned to it a very " precise and narrowed
" environment.
Same thing
with the so called " surgeon's knot ". Brrrrr Grrrrr !
Same
with Franciscan and Capucin's knots.
My findings :
- the so-called Franciscan's knot is ABOK#517 ( two
dressed appearances it has )
- the so-called Capuchin's knot is ABOK#537 without the
tucking of the WE in the SPart (first time I wrote ABOK#535
badly made )
More details for our avid
and curious readers
.
Yes I know curiosity killed the cat ! May be boredom will do you too ?
Franciscans were also called " les Cordeliers " that is
literally " those with the rope" or girdle.
They wear a brown robe with a rope as belt ( hence the "
cordelier " appellation).
It was the garment of the poor of the time.
On the rope should be 3
knots symbolizing :
humility/obedience, poverty,
chastity.
I would not dare to suggest that they had to have knots so as not to
forget. (this is from our French : "Fais un noeud à ton
mouchoir" / 'Put a knot on your handkerchief', meaning make a
not of it
so as not to forget : hence making a small knot in one of the corners
to be reminded.
-----------------------------
Too make it very short and therefore imprecise :
There are 3 branches in the
Franciscans
- - the Franciscans proper ( comprising 3 orders : the
franciscans, The
Clarisses, they live in convents,the secular or lay
members)
Anyone
ready to come up with a Clarisse knot ?
or with a Lay knot !
- - the capucins
- - the Conventuals ( any Convent Knot ?)
capucins are a Roman Catholic religious Order of Friars
(Brothers).
Some of the brothers are priests and some are lay men.
The capucins, whose origins
date from 1525, began as a
reform Order of
the Franciscans. Capucin do not use a knot different from the
Franciscan Friars
Anecdotally :
it is to St Francis that we are indebted to for " la crèche
de Noel " ( Christ child's crib), since he made the very first
recorded
one in 1223 in the hamlet of Greccio
- - - - - - -- - -
Famous Franciscans from Great Britain :
- - Roger BACON
- - Willian of OCKHAM ( should never forget this man's razor
!)
Famous Italian Franciscan :
- - Padre PIO of many alleged miraculous deeds.
- - - - - - - - - - -
Some call the alleged capucin Knot the monkey-tail knot
( le
noeud de queue de singe).
http://cactustour.com/fotos_empreinte/pages/Nature%20singe%20capucin.htm
There is in fact a monkey named in French : singe Capucin ( Cebus
Appela or Sajou brun ) for you English speaking that is the
capucin
Monkey or Sapajou.
From a non-existent capucin
MONK to existing capucin
MONKey the saltation
is possible to the imaginative ones.
End of rambling.
In the case in point not only the name is wrong (wrong as in "not exact", "not adapted": not French, not monk...) but more than that you can play with mirror image of the 2 knots till End Of Times and you will not get one with the other.
They are not equivalent.
They are quite different knots
Under the same vocable are
shown 2 quite different
"cunningly made
kinks in a rope"
(to steal words from someone on the forum : Jimbo
hello !).
More : the knot that is in
fact used by Franciscans in
real life is not illustrating the
"Fransciscan's"label/caption in 99,99 % of
instances. The one shown instead is the so-called Capucin's.
How one can retrieve (fast,
sure, unambiguous,
repeatable retrieval)
something without a pretty severe procedure? Or I am missing
something?
It is not because a "faulty" notion has been and still is
"almost religiously" repeated
like some God sent words for years on end that there is no
justification in putting a stop to that.
That is only my opinion, I
am not there stating a hard
fact.[ONF - Opinion Not Fact]
Making good a mistake is not slandering the author or sullying his/her
reputation.
The more you respect
someone the more you have the duty
to tell when
he/she is erring.
At least that is my feeling.
I would hate that someone should find a mistake in what I say and would
not make me the grace to correct it.
That is the mistake that is banned ( or perhaps not banned, just
clearly "flagged" as such, since it could be interesting to
keep the
full curriculum ) not its "progenitor";
When I find in a book or on a site, a fault that I am able to diagnose,
I always wonder how many more there were that I was not able
to
detect.
Am I the only one having that response to "error
found" flagging ?
When that happen I am quite like the proverbial scalded cat that feared
cold water ever after.
In some answer to my post
someone wrote
"Just as an
example, the two knots you mention are, to
me, with a long
nautical background (1) a Multiple Overhand Knot and
(2) a Heaving Line Knot.".
I rather think that
strengthen my point: instead of
demolishing it :
why go to the extraordinary
length of "creating" new appellations, quite restrictive
and narrowing
at that, in their connotation, when there exist perfectly
good
"descriptive" or "functional" naming? "with rank
seniority".
If one must do something
one should take pains to make
it an
"evolution" and not a
"regression".
Too many great mistakes ( killing and sometimes mass-killing mistakes ) were made only for the fact that 2 persons were not using the same fixed and agreed upon frame of reference.
Past errors should not be
"respected", (respected as in
"let them live
and grow").
(ONF) : errors of the past should be branded "interesting
historical data" and unmercifully put right ( till the next
revision...).
Branded and left in the past and certainly not accepted
in the present lest they are propelled in the future.
I received a mail from a
Franciscan lesser Friar
[Begin quote]
"Voici
la réponse à votre question :
Les
frères capucins et franciscains que j'ai
approchés sont unanimes pour me dire que le noeud
utilisé dans l'ensemble des branches de l'ordre franciscain
est le noeud A1.
Quant aux
soeurs Clarisses, elles ne
semblent guère être
préoccupées par cette question : dans le
monastère que j'ai contacté, chacune a sa
méthode et ne se soucie pas de savoir s'il y a un
modèle à suivre : s'il y en a un, elles ignorent
lequel !!!!"
End quote]
That is
" Capucins and
Franciscans Friars that I have contacted unanimously
told me that the knot in use in all the
branches of the Franciscan
Order is Knot A1 ( note : I sent pics and this A1 was the one
I say is
the "right" one in my post). As for the Clarisses Sisters they do
not appear to have
preoccupation about this question : in the monastery
that I contacted everyone do as please her and no one
bother
with which
model they use, if there was ever one they do
not know about it"
This answering post was from a sharp poster : Brian_Grimley
[end quote]
From Brian again
[begin quote]
I would like to
refer to the photo that you named "So-called Capucin
Knot" that you show here:
......(dead link now )
You note that the "So-called Capucin Knot" is a badly made ABOK #535. I
would say
that it is not ABOK #535.
I have not found it in Ashley - has
anyone else?
In my previous post, on the "Franciscan Knot", I mentioned rolling the
bight or turns to transform one "knot" into another. If one
"rolls" the
"So-called Capucin Knot", the result is
the "Stevedore Knot",
ABOK
#522. I am tempted to say that the "So-called Capucin Knot" is
a badly
dressed, or if you prefer, a badly tied "Stevedore Knot".
Just another thought and comment - Brian.[end quote]
My answer was :
[begin
auto-quote]
Yes! I have seen (once) this 2nd dressing under the label
'Franciscan's'. It is not the knot (or rather
dressing) the lesser Friars use. At least as far I have been
able to ascertain so far.
Yes! Right about the quipus & Inca, right down to their
spelling varieties.
This sort of 'note' would be good to put in the Knot'S Individual File
( KIF) when available under its 'verified' form as here is the
case (
the 'note' I mean).
Quipus not in ABOK, yes. ( new or missed?( Hi Dan_Lehman) in any case
'not in ABOK').
But were they widely known, outside universities, at
the time Ashley wrote?
A
tangent now. (
still have one point of contact with the bigger figure
as all tangent of good pedigree have).
In my trade exist 2 notions :
- genotype : the code program for heredity
- phenotype : the outward "shape" of the outcome of genotype execution
About the 2 dressings : I would say same genotype ( fundamental) and
different phenotypes (epi-phenomenal).
So :
- - either put them in the same 'drawer' in the big chest of knots, but
with labels having a differentiating letter index
- - or (better my mind) one drawing of the 'undressed' knot ( pity it
is
not a pretty young girl! being undressed, I shockingly mean- sorry
Ladies. ;-)), that is the knot just as it is put in
place before any
dressing attempt and one number only. Put the information
about the
dressings options in the paragraph headed "MethodS".
Must take care to have the least ambiguity as is possible in
illustrations ( photo-drawing) and at the same time
keep the
most
extensive collection of information on "methods"
That is what I meant to signify while giving some 'anchoring' from ABOK.
Yes it is not #535 since the omission of the first fold modify the
whole knot #535 in
another one.
Nobody at this time put an ABOK# for the so-called capucin's and I have
yet to find
one for it. But thanks to your input I may have one (
subject to a slight modification).
Imagine ABOK#1119 the Hangman's knot with the standing part
put out of the
"cylinder" of what is a capucin's knot.
Does it comes from here ? Your guess is as good as mine.....
My first working hypothesis before your input, was "bastardized" #535
due to lack
of knowledge of this knot.
Capucin's does not have the 'wholesomeness' of #535.
I find your hypothesis have a " a more natural, easier, more economical
and fluid"
feel. I was trained to go to the simplest
hypothesis ( at
least as a first approach
before being forced by experimental ( or
observational ) result to
modify it).
Ockham's razor is 'transcultural' good practice. ( contrary to an also
transcultural
but very bad practice : following Procrustes 's very bad
bed side manners, too oft
used by 'not so good' thinkers).
Good experimenting that, collapsing the Capucin's into Stevedore's
#522.
Will try it.Wish I had thought of it!
Envious no end I am. ;-)
[end auto-quote]
Url : http://charles.hamel.free.fr/knots-and-cordages/